Professionally Challenged Podcast – Ep 004 – How to conduct a successful client feedback program for your law firm

Transcription

Voice Over: Welcome to Professionally Challenged. War stories from leaders driving change in law firms. Your hosts are Rob Patterson of Parkins Lane Consulting Group, and Paul Evans of Torro Digital.

Paul: Today’s guest is Sue-Ella Prodonovich, the Principal of Prodonovich Advisory. Sue-Ella is one of Australia’s leading specialists in business development for the professional services and business-to-business sectors. Her clients include some of the countries and the worlds best law, accounting, IT, engineering and architect firms. Sue-Ella has more than 20 years of senior level experience, winning work and growing businesses in these complex industries. Over that time, she has given countless professionals the tools they need to attract and retain clients and build a more profitable, more sustainable, and more enjoyable practice.

Paul: Before starting Prodonovich Advisory, Sue-Ella was owner of PTB Consulting, a business development consultancy, which she built and eventually sold to Crowe Horwarth, at the time Australia’s newest media market accounting and advisory firm. After the sale she became Crowe Horwath’s Partner of Business Development Services. Sue-Ella has also held senior roles at other leading professional service firms, including a Director of Marketing at Arthur Anderson & Co in Sydney, a Director of Business Development & Marketing at Baker McKenzie in Sydney, and a Senior Consultant at RogenSi. Welcome to the show Sue-Ella.

Sue-Ella: Thank you, Paul.

Robert: We thought we’d let you off with a few ice breakers. So tell us what was your first ever Job?

Sue-Ella: My first ever job was with Red Rooster.

Paul: Ah, mine too.

Sue-Ella: I’m a port girl, and so Red Rooster, that’s where it started. It was huge. And so I was the Ready Red Rooster girl. 

Robert: All right. Okay. So, your first job was at Red Rooster. What was your first ever car?

Sue-Ella: First car was a Ford Cortina.

Robert: The V6?

Sue-Ella: No. Nothing as, that’s going of a few decades after me. I’m thinking this might’ve been a 70s models, so not when they were square and they had the little ramp headlights. And it’s not the Lotus model. It was the other one. So it was the same time they collaborated with Lotus.

Robert: Ah, very good. Cool.

Sue-Ella: It is a little fun fact. Yeah.

Robert: All right, now more of a serious ice breaker, so if someone knew you really well, what would they know about you that others wouldn’t?

Sue-Ella: Oh, I probably am a bit of an open book. But, if they knew me really well they’d probably know that I was more of an introvert and someone who enjoys a quiet time than networking and big out about, which seems to be what I do all the time.

Robert: I would never have guessed that.

Sue-Ella: There you go.

Robert: Tremendous. Okay, so as Paul said in the intro, today we’re looking in particular customer surveys and how to avoid annoying or putting clients off side when you’re actually conducting a survey. Something that you’re absolutely an expert in. If I could kick off, it’s not unusual for marketing embedded professionals to encounter stern and sustain resistance from partners or law firms when they’re implementing a client survey. Why do you think that is?

Sue-Ella: There’s a couple of reasons, and it’s usually different with firms, because law is still very much a human relationship and everyone is different. So, maybe that’s a broad piece about generalizations. But, if I thought where’s the resistance coming from, often it might come from partners who don’t really want to place an imposition on their clients. The client service and the idea of doing things that benefit the client is front and foremost. And so this can be put into a bucket like that you get those hotel feedback surveys after you’ve stayed a night in a hotel. So, I think sometimes it’s put into that bucket, and it’s driven by not wanting to put an unnecessary imposition on clients.

Sue-Ella: The second reason is because I find marketers and business developers can have approaches that become too inflexible and one way. Here is the way, here is when we ask and here’s the questionnaire that we have, or here’s the way we develop it or deliver it. And sometimes it’s even included in their KPIs, how many they get done. And a difficulty with that is that they will push it to get done to fit a performance review rather than in fact the flexibility required as clients time ebbs and flows. So, that might be the systems in the firms.

Sue-Ella: And the third reason is because there is some ambiguity I think or something. There’s some question marks about what’s going to be done with the information once you get client feedback. Don’t you find that?

Robert: Oh, absolutely. And so, there’s always the suspicion about how it might impact on the on the partner.

Sue-Ella: Exactly. And it’s more than a suspicion, because I see it done in some firms. If firms grabbed client feedback and that becomes either the brick bat or the bouquet that they make promotions on or access to profit draws on or bonuses, then it creates as a disincentive for having any of that feedback. And maybe that brings me to the … so, I’m going to add one more in. I said three, but now this is the fourth. And that is because we have so strongly correlated positive feedback as being the best type of feedback.

Paul: Yes. Yeah, right.

Robert: From which at the time you learn very little.

Sue-Ella: Well, I’m thinking that if it’s bad feedback that that’s a bad thing. But in fact the interesting thing with lawyers is that sometimes they’re bought in for the bad news. Sometimes they have to be firm. They have to be the hand that guides a client through, something that don’t even want to go through. They didn’t choose to just engage a lawyer for the fun of it. So, they’re there to be firm and fair. And at the end of that the client might not have enjoyed the situation, but their feedback might be tough, but in fact that’s exactly what they needed to do. And that was the obligation of the lawyer as well. So that would be the fourth bit.

Robert:

That’s an interesting one.

Paul:

Because, it’s a grudge purchase, really, buying legal services. You don’t just, it’s not like going to an amusement park, which is for fun. This is something that you, I guess you don’t really want to have to buy. It’s just something you need to buy.

Sue-Ella:

You need to, and clients might not understand, there might be some issues. Let’s say if you have a client with a high appetite for risk, and the lawyer discharging their professional duties, advises against that. So, it’s a unique thing I think. Well, it’s unique with the legal profession that they do have their primary duties to the court and the system and then to the client.

Robert:

Exactly. Okay, so just doubling back. So if the number one concern, and I don’t think it’s unfair of the possibility of annoying clients. What are some of your tips to help avoid this?

Sue-Ella:

Okay. Now I’ve got to really try and keep to three Robert. Three tips for not annoying, for avoiding that sort of annoying clients piece. Number one is timing. Give your clients plenty of choice, plenty of upfront notice that your firm or that partner does seek feedback. And that might be the start of an engagement, when you’re inducting the client into your practice or you’re letting them know how you work. It might be then that you mention that you do seek feedback. So, don’t make your deadline the client’s deadline.

Sue-Ella:

The second thing I’d suggest is give your clients choice. Now that could be choice to opt in or opt out. That might be choice as to who they give the feedback to. Some clients prefer to give feedback to an independent person. Some might prefer to give feedback to the individual who they’ve been working with and give it to them directly. So, when you ask for feedback, it’s a choice about who they want to give that feedback to. The best practice is usually someone independent, but I defer to the client’s option.

Sue-Ella:

And the third one is thinking about the best format for that type of client. Some clients really like a face-to-face discussion. They hate those surveys. They hate numbers of questions and all of those things. Whereas other clients I’ve found, they really like an editable PDF. Some clients like to talk over the phone. So be ready for that, those changes, that style of client, particularly if you’ve got clients who are working from home, or who are on some flexible arrangement. So be ready for that. So timing, choice and format.

Robert:

Okay. In respective format, I suppose in my mind when you say format, I think certain surveys follow different certain sort of format. So face-to-face is you sort of in depth, trying to delve down, spend a lot of time with the client. Telephone might be more around end of matter, short and sharp, trying to get a net promoter score. But what you’re saying is perhaps you can, no matter what your outcome you desire, you can entail it to those formats?

Sue-Ella:

Correct. That’s exactly what I’m saying. Yeah.

Robert:

Cool. In terms of choices to who to provide feedback to, that’s really interesting. So as a … I’m putting my marketer hat on here. There’s been some partners over the journey that have said to me, “You can’t do this survey. The clients really unhappy with this. You’re just going to make it worse.” And I wonder if they then might’ve said, “Look, I’ll do the survey.” So, I know you obviously need to trust your partners, but with really tough feedback, I suppose it’s just a natural disposition to maybe just try and sugar coat it or ameliorate it a little bit. Do you think that’s a fair call?

Sue-Ella:

Look, I think it’s a fair call, but we go back to that little chat we had before, which is about how is the information going to be used. And if I thought it was going to be really harsh feedback, and I wasn’t sure how it was going to be used or who else was going to read it, yeah. I mean, so what benefit does it create if the client’s already in a stage of being a bit cranky with you, is it just going to make them crankier, particularly on the timing? And this is the lag between whatever incidents there were that created an issue and then when you’re asking for feedback. So, that’s where we get into the context of it. So, if the partner’s cranky and then you ask for feedback a year later, you’re just going to demonstrate, actually maybe where you fell down. I don’t know.

Robert:

Your total lack of care.

Sue-Ella:

Exactly. So, I think there’s a couple of things there. It’s really hard to answer that one though, Robert, because it all goes down to why were they cranky and do we care. And, what I mean by do we are, sometimes firms can bend over making the wrong clients happy. And, it might be that you needed to make them unhappy to be fair.

Robert:

Yeah. No, I get that. Totally get that. And I really like the concept, because all of a sudden you’re saying to the client, “It’s not just that throwaway. Your feedback is important to us. It is actually important to us, but we want to do it in a way that works really well for you.”

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. I mean, you’ve got to think about, I suppose we might talk about this a little more, but what benefit is there to the client?

Robert:

Yeah, that’s right. And I think that’s often totally ignored in the process. You’re right. It’s probably in my experience very often it’s more about how are we going and how can we improve our services. Rather than okay, well, is there anything that we can do for the client, and how do we then add value to the process to the client?

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. What can we learn? I mean good clients often want you to stay around and they’re often flattered that they’re asked or they like providing things that will help the service. But, if you’re using the client’s time to provide feedback for a bog bit of research or something like that, so you can win an award, clients are getting a bit annoyed with that. You’re using their time so you can go out and say which awards you won.

Robert:

Yeah, exactly right.

Paul:

So can I add, what’s your experience with where a client has a full team of lawyers? So, an in house department. Do you go to everyone in that department or do you go to just the general counsel? Because I find you’d probably get three different feedback if you went …

Sue-Ella:

You’re right.

Paul:

… down the ranks. Then people go sort of in and out of it every day.

Sue-Ella:

You’re spot on. It is quite different. It’s more difficult to do Paul, when there’s a lot. Again, we go back to asking the client what is the best way that they want to share the feedback with you. And that might be with the general counsel, or it might be with a point of contact that is managing the relationship day-to-day. And this is where the client relationship partner would really have a feel for the hierarchy and the politics. Because, oftentimes you’ll have a general counsel who will say, “Look, I don’t get involved in day-to-day.” Like if you had panel relationships. They like to know what’s going on but they don’t need to be involved. Others might want to be more involved.

Sue-Ella:

And then there’s, depending on how they want to be involved with some clients, let them choose their format. So with some clients we know that they like circulating a document and then the group shares their feedback, and that comes back to us. Other times they might like a focus group or a conversation with a few of them in. And other times they’d like us to do it one-to-one, and then the general counsel asks to say the feedback as well. And sometimes they’ll say no. Look, it’s not all rainbows and butterflies. Sometimes you will have clients that say, “Yeah, no. If we start giving you feedback, we’ve got to give everyone feedback.” And just that becomes, this goes to the benefit to the client. And if they see this as a process and they’ve got to do it for you and then everyone else that can stall it or stop it.

Robert:

What other ways could you potentially make a survey beneficial for the client? We’re giving them choice and they’re doing it in a format that they like. Is it that the monster will change in the way you do things? Is that a key way of adding back value?

Sue-Ella:

Okay, let me think about that Robert. One of the things in giving value back is the timing for your feedback. And some general counsel have said they’d like to give feedback if for example, on staff reviews, on performance reviews. And one said to me, “I’m just surprised that I’m never asked about the performance of key people when they’re being put up for senior associate or put up for partner.” Why would the firm ask for some feedback from the key clients? And so that’s a benefit to them.

Sue-Ella:

Other benefits might be that if the feedback goes into a particular process that you’re looking to improve, or you’re just, if you wanted to check on a particular deal and how you went, then brainstorm with the client. “Okay, in hindsight this is how this happened, but what would we do differently? If this was to happen again what do you think?” Clients can explain to you the hierarchies and cultural nuances of their organizations in a conversation. And that makes their job easy if you’re respectful of or you understand the culture of an organization, and that comes out a lot in these client discussions.

Paul:

Do you find that they also generate ideas for new value-adds, these surveys?Instead of just getting feedback on you are great or not so great, do you find you get feedback that, “We would really love to do this with your firm, and if that was something you offered that would be exceptional”? Or is that, I know it’s a different sort of topic, but it feels like it would come up in those kind of …

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. No, you’re right. It normally does come up in these conversations where you’re testing the value-adds you’re ‘providing and seeing if it really does provide value. Because often value-adds will be charged for. It’s not just free stuff. Yes, you can absolutely test what you’re providing or more importantly, ask if there’s another provider who’s doing something that you should take the leaf out of their book. And another provider might not be another law firm. It might be some other supplier or professional service firm that they work with. Often I hear some great ideas coming out of what the banks are doing with them or what their ID team providers are doing with them, so far as training or support, or just taking the time to understand their business. So, stop looking at your competitors and look outside the market. Sometimes that’s where clients are getting the best ideas.

Robert:

Okay, cool. So, then we’ve decided to do a customer survey and we’re getting ready to roll it out. What are the most effective ways to communicate to your clients that you do want to do with survey?

Sue-Ella:

Okay. So, we start off Robert, by thinking have we told them about this when we started working with them? Do we say that actually at firm ABC, we like hearing feedback from you and you’re welcome to give it to me any time during this. Or here’s a person, an independent person or the managing partner or chairman to whom you can always escalate issues. So, that type of chat at the start. But I think your questions is, “Right, we’re about to start and now how do we communicate?” Is that right?

Robert:

It is. I like your preface though. It’d be nice if …

Sue-Ella:

It’d be nice of you. So, I find that useful that the client relationship partner is the person who raises this with their client. That is often by email, or it’s recommended you do that by email. And so you introduce the idea to the client and ask if they’d be willing to participate.

Robert:

That’s good. Yeah, I like that. So yeah, rather than some nondescript person in the marketing team that’s firing it off..

Sue-Ella:

Oh, if we’re looking at the role of a client relationship partner, this would absolutely be part of their role. Now, certainly someone in marketing can organize the logistics or follow up. Maybe the managing partner or chairman might be in the loop and following up. But if we’re talking about who invites them, I think it’s useful that the client knows that the partner they’ve been dealing with or the partner responsible is the person who’s putting this forward. That it’s not one of those suspicious checks. Is my lawyer being checked on by the chairman or the managing partner for a reason? So, let’s keep the client relationship partner in control.

Robert:

Yep. Cool. One of the things I’ve often seen is firms doing mid-matter surveys. Do you have any thoughts on those? Because, I know if at times clients are being very concerned, that they do annoy clients, because you’re sort of in the middle of the capital trial, so then they stopping and …

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. If mid-matter surveys were imposed on by someone else other than the client relationship partner, because they’ve done the type of work, then I think it’s a bit of a recipe for disaster there. Because, we’re stopping the client mid-business stream to ask them for some updates. Now, if you’re talking though about let’s say a piece of litigation or it’s a long type of project where there are logical milestones through that, and the partners had that discussion with the client at the start. And let’s say even if you had a fee structure on a milestone billing structure, then it will be useful. Because, then we’d say, “Okay, here’s where we were unsure of what was going to happen, how the other side was going to respond.” So, it would be more of a strategy discussion as well. How do we go, now let’s make sure that we’re still on on track for a strategy, or do we need to update that. Then it would make sense as part of the strategy.

Robert:

Yeah. Great. Sort of like a half time huddle at the the footie.

Sue-Ella:

Exactly. Oh quarter time if you watch AFL.

Robert:

Obviously it’s really good manners to say thank you to clients for participating. But what else should you provide them with feedback on?

Sue-Ella:

If you’ve put a request out to a whole lot of clients to provide feedback, let’s say if you joined a piece of syndicated research for example, or you’re doing it as an annual or a once off project where you’re getting client feedback from clients. I think it’s always useful to share what that was from your project with all the clients that you’ve asked. So, let them know the good things, but also where you’re going to concentrate, or the things that you’ve learnt and what you’re going to do as a result. So, it’s closing the loop.

Sue-Ella:

If it was just feedback with a client about a particular team or on a particular matter along with the thank you, the partner might want to respond to a couple of things raised, or at least say, “Look, I’ll pass on your good words or good wishes.” If it was all terrific, let’s pass those on in writing to the people that they applauded. So yeah, just always close the loop.

Robert:

Okay, that’s good. I think one of the complaints I’ve often heard from clients is that they don’t feel that they’ve been heard. And if you just thank them but don’t provide them with any feedback, then they don’t feel like they’ve been heard. They’ve just gone through the process.

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. And that can often be, if you’ve had let’s say an external body do it with no one from the firm attending, and the partners don’t see the feedback. So, can I just take it one step further and say I’m often surprised at how little the feedback from clients is shared within a firm. So for sure the client expects that everyone’s heard or people have heard about the feedback they’ve given. When no one says anything, the client starts wondering, “Well who heard this and and was I heard?” Whereas feedback from clients should be shared with the entire firm.

Paul:

If you did it for all your clients, what if there was something really negative about one lawyer in particular, and then you didn’t share that feedback, I imagined that would be the risk of sharing it with everyone.

Sue-Ella:

I think, you wouldn’t share that with everyone in the firm. The wider you share it, the more you might edit any personal observations. And keeping in mind, particularly in Australia, how people might describe things can be quite blunt. So, let’s say, if you have a client saying, “Look, Sally lawyer, she wasn’t bad.” Now …

Paul:

When it’s written down it could be out of context, yeah.

Sue-Ella:

It’s like, “Oh, she’s not bad. And, in the Australian vernacular, if they said that Sally lawyer wasn’t bad, in fact she wasn’t bad at all. Now …

Paul:

That’s a compliment.

Sue-Ella:

… we know that’s a really good compliment. So, if I was sharing it with the wider firm, I’d shared general lessons. I share some quotes and maybe some qualitative scoring, client effort score, net promoter score for example. Certainly when I do feedback, if I’ve got anything that’s quite personal, it doesn’t help anyone else knowing that the particular personal feedback. I share that with the partner involved and I let the client know that I won’t take their notes or what they’ve said verbatim, but I will share the tone and the intent of it. And then when I asked the client, “What is the intent of you telling me this?” It becomes a little bit of a different story. But, how they express it in the first way might be a bit blunt.

Sue-Ella:

So, I’d have different ways of sharing the feedback, different scales across the firm. But absolutely, feedback, if you had looked and collected feedback, let’s say from government clients, or feedback from clients that had the same job title. And at least said “What do all our HR buying clients say is the most important value-add that they like get?” You’re going to start seeing a picture across the data, and that’s the power of it.

Robert:

Yeah. As opposed to individual comments perhaps. Okay. How often should, that’s it’s actually a question itself. So should or is it beneficial for law firms to conduct a rolling program, or is it better to conduct the quiet listening or survey program? So, once a year or once every six months as apposed to just a continual program.

Sue-Ella:

Yep. Okay. It might annoy you Robert. I’m going to say it depends. So, there’s two different types of feedback. We’ve got relationship feedback, which is around the overall relationship with the firm. And then you’ve got transactional feedback, which is about a matter or a project or a milestone. Transactional feedback is useful on a rolling program. So, close enough as possible to a milestone, be it the end or a major milestone in between. So that’s not a rolling program.

Sue-Ella:

And the reason why I say depends for that relationship piece, is that some clients you might just need to touch bases as a form of feedback, maybe once every two years. And the rest of the time you’ve got a well oiled machine with the firm, where the client relationship partner and the client are catching up in teams and going through strategy every quarter. And so really the client feedback is just there at the end of every couple of years.

Sue-Ella:

Where I’ve been involved in other relationship feedback in a block has been if a firm has bought a practice in a lateral hire, or they have merged with a practice. And then what we might do is a temperature check on just how things are going at a certain time. Under those circumstances you might decide to do a block or audit a certain section of the clients, and just see how things are going.

Robert:

Okay. Well that’s an interesting concept. I like the idea, particularly with lateral hires, having that check-in. It’s to see how, particularly how their clients are going, and going with the firm. Because, usually they’ve been with the partner themselves for awhile.

Sue-Ella:

Exactly.

Robert:

That might be what they’re experiencing within the firm. Okay. I really like that. One of the most successful client listening programs I’ve ever been involved in, was in depth and was conducted by an external interviewer. And I think what I really liked about that program was, it provided really rich insight and actually involved saving a couple of clients for the firm, which was quite interesting.

Paul:

From leaving?

Robert:

Yeah, from leaving, with the feedback. And it wasn’t matter specific, where the relationship excelled to an extent where they were either actively looking or about to leave. When should firms use the services of an external or a professional interviewer as opposed to doing it themselves?

Sue-Ella:

I don’t think it’s an either or. I think having an external program is really useful if it supports your resources, if it supports the partners in getting it done. And perhaps if you’re interested in benchmarking your results with other firms, that research might have done. So that can be useful. Yeah.

Robert:

Okay. Cool. Okay. We started getting towards the end of the spill and I’ve really enjoyed it. Some really great tips for people doing surveys and client interviews. Are there any final comments or pearls of wisdom that you have for someone who’s just about to embark upon this exercise?

Sue-Ella:

I’ll give you a tip of purest gold here. And that is, start off with a sample of one. Too often times I’ve seen firms freeze because it’s going to be a big campaign and we need to get 20 or 30 or a hundred clients ready, and they’re all going to be surveyed. And it just becomes a big hot mess. Rather than wait until you have the absolute perfect conditions and the perfect score and the perfect questions, why not start out with a sample of one friendly client and ask for some feedback? And then go back and say, “Well how did that feel? Here’s some questions I might try. Maybe I need to give Sue-Ella a call, just to see what questions we should ask.” But then that confidence and experience in asking, it takes building. And then you’ll … because you really getting ready for different situations.

Sue-Ella:

So my tip is, start with a sample and even if it’s just one, except that it might not be perfect, but you’ve made it a start. So many clients that I interview tell me they have not spoken, not been asked for feedback by any other firm. And yet firms tell me they’re all asking for feedback. But, I’m not, I’m not seeing a crowded marketplace, and I’m not seeing clients saying that they’re getting a bit cranky because they’re being asked too often. They’re more cranky that they’re not asked or they’re asked in the wrong way, or they’re asked to fill out award forms.

Robert:

I like that. That’s exact advice that probably Paul would give to someone who is wanting to develop an online product. That minimum viable product approach. Yeah, so rather than perfecting it. And you could even have a bit of, not a bit of fun, but you could experiment a little bit with questions and see which ones really resonate and work well. Rather than trying to protect it.

Sue-Ella:

Yep. And start with your friendly clients. Don’t make it that hard that you starting with the worst guy’s litigation or family law matters. They’re always difficult and personal. So ask a longstanding client, one who’s been loyal, and one who might feel that they’ve been taken for granted. So, your win straight away is that you’re letting your client know that you don’t take them for granted and then everyone’s happy.

Paul:

Great advice.

Robert:

If you could lead any other company in the world other than Prodonovich Advisory, which one would that be? Which one?

Sue-Ella:

That would be Prodonovich Travel Agency, because I’d be sorting out my next trips or something. Yes, Prodonovich first class flights and cruising travel agency, then they’d give me the free flights.

Robert:

Yeah, that’s good.

Paul:

And finally, how can people connect with you?

Sue-Ella:

Oh, okay. Well thank you Paul. They can connect with me a number of different ways. On my website is my blog. My website is www.Prodonovich.com. And do you mind if I spell out Prodonovich?

Paul:

Go for it.

Sue-Ella:

So it’s P for Peter, R-O-D-O-N-O-V-I-C-H.

Paul:

Great.

Sue-Ella:

It’s like saying that GoGoMobile ad, isn’t it? And so, all of my contact details, my phone, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, you name it, all of those. So whatever method you like contacting me on, you can.

Robert:

I’ve got that choice.

Paul:

Fantastic.

Sue-Ella:

You’ve got choice. Just not after hours.

Robert:

Well, again Sue-Ella, I’d really like to thank you and some real gems in that discussion. And I think it’d be really helpful for people who are embarking upon a client survey or client list. Can be a bit of a harrowing task, particularly for journey marketing people I think. And you run into all sorts of barriers. But I think you provided some great advice. And of course if they get stuck, they should just give you a yell.

Sue-Ella:

Yeah. Hopefully they do. But, thanks so much. Thank you for inviting me.

Robert:

Very welcome.

Paul:

Thanks Sue-Ella.

Robert:

Bye-bye.

Sue-Ella:

See you. Bye.

Voice Over:

Thank you for listening to Professionally Challenged. Visit our website at www.professionallychallenged.com and please leave us a review on iTunes. Until next time. Bye for now.